Taxonomy means finding ways of sorting things, eg you could dump all your eating irons in a pile but most people find it useful to put the knives in one section, the forks in another, etc. For the taxonomist things get interesting when figuring out where to put the splades. Should they go with the spoons or with the forks?
I enjoy thinking about stuff like this. (For practical reasons I put the splades with the forks ‘cos I only have two other types of forks – dinner and cake. I already have three kinds of spoons – soup, dessert and tea.)
Anyway in an another post I said,
“I wanna talk about the technical aspects of dancing, new moves and steps, info about bands, stuff about the music, social stuff, who's up ... (oops, censored) and the story of R'n'R and revues of venues.
Eg, I am still looking for a musicologist who has studied the taxonomy of music and who can describe in technical music terms what characterises Rock.”
And Lyndon replied,
“What I reckon is sad, is anyone who needs to characterise Rock.
RobE is looking for a “Musicologist who studied the Taxonomy of music” to explain it for us. Geeeees.
My contribution to this is to suggest that it confirms in my mind at least, that only someone who is not a musician would ask such a question, or, need such a question answered.
We are talking Nostalgia arenÂ’t we?Â…Â….During the Fifties there was all sorts of music being played by the same school of musicians. For example, quite a lot of the Fifties Super Stars were also heavily into Gospel, Country, Blues and Jazz outfits at the same time as they were capitalising on the so called Rock and Roll phenomena.
To a muso, there really isnÂ’t a difference apart from the basic scaling variations that have developed, because we love to play music and get the most out of expressing ourselves while playing it. Some of us of course do favour certain influences from our own idols and in my case, most of them were around in the Fifties.
How many times have we seen arguments on this site about what defines Rock and Roll music, when the very existence of participation of Country, Rockabilly and Blues bands on Vic rock argues that it is all good music from an Era, that when played at the appropriate tempo, is great to dance too.
I would rather discourage a debate on this subject and concentrate more on consolidating the Rock and Roll scene.”
A well-known football coach of a bygone era was once recorded addressing his team and said the words "don't think...do!" There's nothing to analyze in rock music. It's a doing thing.
Sorry, but I enjoy analysing and finding things out. I like to know what makes something tick.
Also, let me make this very, very, very clear. I am not looking to create artificial divisions. I am definitely not saying one style of music is better than another.
Music starts from the same base. There is a mathematical progression of sound waves of different pitch that the human ears can differentiate as musical notes. Then factors such as tempo and styling come in to let us make more sense of what we are hearing.
That is why an accomplished musician like Lyndon can play a whole range of different styles of music on the same instrument.
Most of us can listen to music and we just know if a particular song is Rockabilly or Doo Wop or Surf Sound or Country or whatever.
It does not matter and it is not really important but we just know.
So if we can hear that there are characteristic differences there must be ways of explaining what those characteristic differences are; in terms of tempo, phrasing, chord progressions, emphasis, the Italian words that Whem greets us with each morning and the diminished thingamies and minor whatsits.
I may not understand the explanation but I would still like to know.
It is our inner selves that relate to the nostalgia of the particular Era that we have an affection for. The music that was predominate at the time to many of us, defines that Era.
Music is not a product of the brain, but it does come from the heart.
There is no mathematic intention or any other academic fundamental that defines music.
The only theory behind music, is the relationship that notes have with each other and the selected timing between them.
RobE, the next time you find yourself tapping your feet to a great beat, or being transported by the mood of an emotional ballad, without paying attention to the lyrics, just enjoy the moment and you may find the answer that you seek.
Music is and always will be an individual experience, not a calculated and manufactured bunch of musical notes put together by any theory.
Of course this is only my opinion and emulates from an understanding of the fundamentals of music and playing it from the heart.
Way back in the peace, you once accused Shadoogie of sounding “a little too 104.3 FM ish and that comment always bewildered me, as I am not guilty of playing the same thing, the same way, more than once.
Every time I play, regardless of how many times I have played a song, I play it different because I am continually adlibbing. Not only adlibbing the notes, but also the feel of what I am playing.
You have never heard Shadoogie play in a Monash or Gully type of atmosphere, but if you had, you would understand what I am trying to sayÂ…..The mood and atmosphere of a venue and or itÂ’s patrons, transforms you into a style and sound that makes you feel accepted by the ones that you are there to please. And, I can tell you that from time to time it feels great to play gutsy, kick arse Rock and Roll, but it is equally, if not more rewarding playing your own version of the Classics.
Enjoy the dance Rob and donÂ’t worry about what makes you want to do it, because there is no explanation beyond your own emotional programming. B)
There is no mathematic intention or any other academic fundamental that defines music.
The only theory behind music, is the relationship that notes have with each other and the selected timing between them.
Gee Lyndon I really do not know about that part of your statement.
No disrespect intended but music is very Mathematical. With timing and bars, beats to the minute and timing between instruments. I believe there is a true dynamic with how certain Instruments are put together.
Lyndon, I love you like a brother and I enjoy the mainstream Rock music of Shadoogie but stop fighting this one.
Science explains why the music is possible, heart and soul is why music is moving and enjoyable.
Sound conforms to processes that can be described scientifically. Sound waves vibrate the ear drum and this rattles a set if tiny bones. The rattles get turned into electrical current. A microphone works the same way.
Many moons ago I studied Physics, Chemistry and Biology before I flip-flopped and became a Youth Worker.
Dig this, non-musician me gets a bunch of similar shaped bottles. I put different levels of water in each. I hit them with a spoon. Each bottle makes a ringing noise and each ringing noise has a different tone. If I had the patience I could keep adding or emptying water until I have a tuned set of bottles and then play Mary Had A Little Lamb.
Maths: I arrange the water in one bottle so I have double the air of another bottle. It sounds the same but eight notes lower.
More maths: A vibrating object has a harmonic, a note we can hear from a wave-form moving through air. Double the number of vibrations produces a note an octave higher. Halve the number of vibrations and the same note sounds an octave lower.
Still sceptical? Pythagoras, the triangle bloke, demonstrated how two vibrating strings make a harmonious sound when a relationship between the respective lengths is a smallish whole number ratio. This is why musicians talk about fifths and sevenths.
Now can we get back to looking at why we can pick whether a song is one type of Rock or another?
There is mathematical intention in music to be precise, for instance 1234,123, 4/43/4 12/8 6/8 5/8. it must add up even some jazz muso's that play no time peices still start on 1 lol
everything in life evolves around numbers, and that came from a Drummer loll :laugh: :laugh:
No we canÂ’t get back to your definition RobE, because I am not going to give in that easy.
My point being that you can attribute the definition of Sound to science, but not Music.
We all learnt the fundamentals of sound at school and thanks for the tertiary version of it.
Your example of the distance between one octave and another has no relevance to your argument either, because a melody is not reliant upon the existence of an octave, nor does the style of a song rely upon it.
You may choose an octave for instance if singing in unison, or you may choose to sing in harmony using your thirds, fifths and so on, but these theoretical differences in notation do not in themselves define, or contribute to the differences between say, Rock and Roll, or Country.
Music, is the arrangement of different sounds according to what is being FELT at the time and subsequently applied to a beat, or visa versa, They are two entirely different things.
Bobcat, yeh, I agree, there is academic theory applied to music if you are going to write it down so that it can be duplicated or preserved, but there is no mathematical theory behind the soul of music. Maybe you can argue that there are some basic rules, such as the old C, Am, F, G sequence, but as this configuration will appear in just about all forms of music, it still doesnÂ’t define it.
Man I love thisÂ…Â….and will agree on one thing that you say RobE, your academic background and attraction to the mathematical undefined almost assures and convinces me, that you will never truly FEEL the music when you are dancingÂ…and I reckon that is a shame, because my point remains, Music is to be enjoyed, not analysed.
Hey Frank....now common, you not trying to tell me that drummers can count????????
Back to ya's
Music is not a product of the brain, but it does come from the heart.
There is no mathematic intention or any other academic fundamental that defines music.
The only theory behind music, is the relationship that notes have with each other and the selected timing between them.
RobE, the next time you find yourself tapping your feet to a great beat, or being transported by the mood of an emotional ballad, without paying attention to the lyrics, just enjoy the moment and you may find the answer that you seek.
Hi Lyndon. As a scientist and former musician, I was intrigued by your statement. The romantic notion is that music comes from the heart, but in fact, both musical ability and feeling the music are indeed governed by the brain. Some a hard-rock groups today play by some of the same rules of harmony that Johann Sebastian Bach did in the 18th century. Researchers are trying to understand melody, harmony, rhythm, and the feelings they produce, at the level of individual brain cells. One of the pioneers in this research is a musician, composer, and neuroscientist who studies how the brain perceives music and responds to it emotionally.
Almost all humans come into the world with an innate capability for music. Music is in our genes. Babies come into the world with musical preferences. They begin to respond to music while still in the womb. At the age of 4 months, dissonant notes at the end of a melody will cause them to squirm and turn away. If they like a tune, they may coo. Scientists cite such responses as evidence that certain rules for music are wired into the brain. For example, tone deafness or the inability to recognize musical tones or rhythms or to reproduce them is controlled by the brain. This disorder can be present at birth or be acquired sometime later in life following brain damage.
The right side of the brain is crucial for perceiving pitch as well as certain aspects of melody, harmony, timbre, and rhythm. The left side of the brain in most people excels at processing rapid changes in frequency and intensity, both in music and words. Such rapid changes occur when someone plucks a violin string versus running a bow across it. Both left and right sides are necessary for complete perception of rhythm. For example, both hemispheres need to be working to tell the difference between three-quarter and four-quarter time. The front part of your brain, where working memories are stored, also plays a role in rhythm and melody perception.
It's not clear what, if any, part these hearing centers play in 'feeling' music. Other areas of the brain deal with emotion and pleasure. Researchers have found activity in brain regions that control movement even when people just listen to music without moving any parts of their bodies. If you're just thinking about tapping out a rhythm, parts of the motor system in your brain light up.
Music is as inherently motor as it is auditory."Many of us 'conduct' while listening to classical music, hum along with show tunes, or dance to popular music. Add the contributions of facial expressions, stage lights, and emotions, and you appreciate the complexity of what our brain puts together while we listen and interact with music in a concert hall or mosh pit.
I apologize for the length of this post but I thought it might help to convince you that music does indeed come from the brain.
I have sat here and read this stuff and while its good to see people interested in discussing a topic seriously and to read how music can be analysed, lets put it all in perspective here.
No disrespect intented but analysing music is like analysing sex. Thats a series of mathematical rythmic patterns combined with the sciences of biology, psychology and physics but you'd be in for a crap night if all you want to do is discuss it.
Thumper
Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans - J. W. Lennon
Your posting does not surprise me given your scientific background and you have clearly missed the point which is a common phenomena in scientific research when the focus is narrowed by a fixation on one path of thought.
We all know that the brain is where all things emulate from and my reference to the heart is no more than the thought that one can have a broken heart.
But everything you have said only relates to the stimuli that feeds the brain information via the ears in terms of sound and vibrations causing physical distortion of the body cells.
The brain was doing all the things that your research has revealed long before the first musical instrument was ever invented, or tune was ever hummed.
Nothing that you have said has presented any evidence what so ever, that music can, or should be analysed.
I know this posting is getting a little long winded and stupid, but I find it continually amusing that anyone with any common sense would want to analyse music and define it.
Good music is like a good wine and should be enjoyed,,,nothing moreÂ….nothing less.
And donÂ’t try and tell me that mathematics has anything to do with the existence of the grape.
Gee RobE you have a lot to answer for lol lol
As a mere punter without one ounce of musical talent I believe I can speak for all us non musicans - it dont matter how it comes out as long as it sounds good.
I agree with bassthumper in that analysing music is like analysing sex - except most songs last around three minutes
:P :P :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Ha ha chuckle chuckle ha ha ha! You crack me up Shane. If you try foreplay, you can get an extra cuppla minutes but I suggest the five-play mate Â… six minutes assured!!! :laugh: :lol: :P
Live & let Live, Love & let Love, Rock & let Roll, plus related clichés.
The following is a mildly technical description of the principal characteristics of a music genre (not Rock) that I really enjoy.
- Features mostly acoustic stringed instruments.
- Instrumental solos are/appear to be improvised. These
can frequently be technically demanding and played in a
fast tempo.
- Country music inflections.
- Lyrics tend to have an emphasis on sentimental or religious
themes, often with a southern USA geographic basis.
- Vocal harmonies featuring two, three, or four parts.
- Vocal interplay often featuring a modal sound in the highest voice.
- A vocal style with a high-pitched harmony that can generally
be characterised as having a nasal timbre is sung over the
main melody.
:laugh: :lol: 
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